Chargen: Great part of the game, or Greatest part of the game?

[Alpharius]

Alright, we need to decide on how people go about creating characters. Personally, I like the three-step approach: Everyone starts off with just rolling for stats, then they pick a body type, then a specialization within that family.

[Berserker Steve]

I love to picking traits idea after choosing you something like beetle, ant, spider, you can pick something like acid spit, jump, water walk to you can make your own kind of sub-species based of a bigger one. Like the qualitys in SR.

[BrokenMuse]

I like something like the 3-step approach as well, with the addition of something like Shadowrun's maximum attributes. Nothing ridiculous, but butterflies would have their "strength" attribute capped at something lower than a beetle's maximum, for example.

[Quest Lord]

If we roll for stats first, then each body type should have a modifier to the stats, and then each species a further modifier.

If we use something like that that I looted from the thread and modified with some other ideas from the thread:

Stats
Vitality: Generic Health
Strength: How strong
Rigidity: defense, improved with chitin and stuff. Having higher generally means you have less...
Flexebility: dodging and grappling. More leaves you less rigid, but better in combat.
Agility. Speed. Centipedes have FUCKFAST Agility.
Intelligence: is required to use exploits, set traps, etc.
Social: grants teamwork bonuses. Hive animals would have tonnes of this, but lower intel.

So beetles might have +2V +2S +4R -4F -2A -1I -1S
A stag beetle (female) might have a further +4S +2R -4F -2A

Note: Male/Female stats might have to be different across the species, thanks to sexual dimorphism, etc.

[Alpharius]

Alright, I think we should focus initially on a manageable number of classes, and give each one... Let's say, three sub-specializations.

As Muse put it in another thread:

Ants: A generalist capably of several choices. They can help support the group or operate as fearless fighters. Get bonuses for working in groups.
Bees: Like ants, but airborne and with a stronger bent towards support (healing, scouting, etc).
Butterflies/Moths: Frail and useless as fighters. Scales from their wings produce a variety of effects. Maybe the "wizards" of the game.
Beetles: Powerhouses. They're the tanks of the group. Strong and able to take a hit.
Cockroaches: Hard to kill. May not be the strongest of the group or the fastest or the most aware, but has staying power. Can be a clever and stealthy scout.
Dragonflies: Aerial rogues. They're fast, deadly and can't take a direct hit. On the ground they lose much their advantages.
Spiders: Stealthy predators. Depending of if its a web weaver or hunter, they're either best suited to laying traps and waiting or taking the fight to the enemy. Not the best as the tank/main fighter, best suited to flanking with bites and well-placed webs.
Scorpions: Berserkers? They sting and sting and don't back down.

Ants... Let's say a Worker variant, a Soldier variant, and a Queen variant (Buffer/Attacker/Minion Class).
Bees: Healing, Scouting, and perhaps a swarm-oriented variant.
Butterflies/Moths: Offensive, Defensive, and Healing.
Beetles: Offense, Defense, and a mixture of both.
Roaches: Scouting, Subterfuge, and Jack-of-All-Trades.
Dragonfly: Scout, Attack, and... Not sure what else.
Spiders: Stealth, Ferocity, and Venom.
Scorpions: Perhaps different types of venom?

Just tossing ideas around.

[Quest Lord]

Rather then limit ourselves right away, lets just work on the core species first, and branch out as things go along. So we might have a basic species for each type, for ants we might have the variants within one species to start with (castes being very different within species being enough variation for now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Polymorphism ), ditto for bees. Butterflies we could have 3 species, etc. etc.

To start with I think we need:
Ants... Let's say a Worker variant, a Soldier variant, and a Queen variant (Buffer/Attacker/Minion Class).
Bees: Healing, Scouting, and perhaps a swarm-oriented variant.
Butterflies/Moths: Offensive, Defensive, and Healing.
Beetles: Offense, Defense, and a mixture of both.
Spiders: Stealth, Ferocity, and Venom

Not sure about the Queen though, queens don't really do much apart from sloth around laying eggs. Minion class should just be ants working with pheremones, etc IMHO anyhow.

[Alpharius]

Yeah, Queens might make good bosses, but probably not the best PCs.

[BrokenMuse]

There could be a "young queen" class. It'd have flight (poorly) and greater pheromone abilities than regular ants.

Three classes sounds manageable. People can name them what they want anyway. It's not an Attacker Beetle, its a Goliath! The social/caste-based insects will be the easiest to determine since there's already castes there.

[Quest Lord]

If our monster manual and our character class species, etc. are all the same, it might be possible to play as a queen ant, but attach a note saying it's not recommended. . . a queen ant yet to be fertilised might be a fun one: Character motivation - find a male of the species, get laid and settle down to lay some eggs.

[Alpharius]

If our monster manual and our character class species, etc. are all the same, it might be possible to play as a queen ant, but attach a note saying it's not recommended. . . a queen ant yet to be fertilised might be a fun one: Character motivation - find a male of the species, get laid and settle down to lay some eggs.

I'm not convinced that the two are going to overlap seamlessly. I mean, yeah, low-level parties are probably just going to be fighting other insects (And even then, there's likely to be some that don't exist as playable in the first iteration), but at higher levels, the players are likely going to be taking on lizards, rodents, maybe even birds.

[Quest Lord]

The thread seemed to grok off a concept of having heaps and heaps of different species, so unless we went with an "Attack beetle + attribute + attribute + ability = Goliath beetle" type system for example I don't think 3 classes would work in the long run.

Beetles for example would have bombadier beetles, rhino beetles, goliath beetles, weevils, stag beetles, scarab beetles, ladybugs, etc. just off the ones mentioned in the thread.

If instead we worked out base stats for beetles, and then you added the type and species template you wanted it might work better.
So if you wanted a Goliath beetle you'd pick beetle, modify your stats as per beetle, then pick goliath beetle as your species, getting the attributes, further stat mods, etc. that come with that.

That way we can start by making a bunch of simpler species templates and then branch out, adding more and more as we go.

[Quest Lord]

Well, all the bugs in the MM should be playable anyhow IMHO. A lot of the fun in the /tg/ thread was over the mutability of the "game". If we went with the template and subtemplate pattern, NPCs would just be basic subtemplates, without any further modifiers for example.

[Alpharius]

Hmmm... Not a bad idea.

Once we have the basic mechanics worked out (Which we should get on soon), it might make the most sense to divvy up the various aspects of designing to game to different people, perhaps convene on a weekly (Or more?) basis to update each other, post what we've got so far, ask for input, etc.

[BrokenMuse]

I posted my (quick) thoughts in the System voting thread on the basic mechanics. Dividing up tasks should probably wait until there's more than the 3 (4?) of us.

[Guest]

On the subject of colonial insects:

Ants: Hard work, no nonsense, "down to earth", utilitarian - Humans.
Bees: Artistic, big emphasis on dance, feed on honey - Elves.
Wasps: Warlike, honor-bound, aggressive - Orcs? Dragonborn?
Termites: Much like ants, but smaller and create enormous hives - Dwarves.

Ants are generally open to other Colonials, so long as they do not impede the matters of the home hive. They suffer often from in-fighting and other warring colonies, and march grimly to battle often. Like other Colonials, they have clear Caste systems.
-Scouts make regular forays out into the far reaches, searching for resources and observing the movements of enemies. They provide pheromone trails that allow Soldiers to better attack their enemies.
-Soldiers are the Ant shock troops, large and durable. Paired with a Scout, they make for a formidable force. The Soldier has a pair of strong mandibles, and may even be able to shoot acid.
-Drones are the ambassadors of the colony, some even consorts to the Queen. They lead Soldiers and Scouts from high vantage points in the air to better strategic positions. The Drone is the only Ant that has wings.

Bees tend to look down upon the land-crawling Colonials, but are willing to cooperate with them. Wasps, however, they have a long-standing feud with. Bees have a close relationship with Flowers, their greatest resource. Solitary Bees do exist, and tend to live peaceful lives outside of colonies. All Bees have a barbed sting, which releases attack pheromones, calling all other bees to engage the stung target. If a Bee stings a Mammal, there is a good chance the Bee will die as the stinger gets caught and torn out. Like other Colonials, they have clear Caste systems.
-Foragers are the primary workforce of the colony. They collect nectar, pollinate flowers and create wax. Foragers generate a minute electrostatic charge, which helps in the transfer of pollen.
-Hive Sisters are highly trained and defend the hive. They usually serve in support roles, but organized and in large numbers, they can be deadly. Their barbed stingers call all other bees to attack a target.
-(something about dance, I can't be assed to come up with a name)

Wasps are the most warlike out of the Colonials. They employ brutal tactics that demolish everything in their path, while some hives have even taken to laying eggs in their enemies. Wasps have a casual disdain for all things, but show great respect for strength. Every interaction with a Wasp is a dominate or be dominated situation. Extremely versatile, there is rarely anything a hive of Wasps cannot defeat when they put their minds to it. Like other Colonials, they have clear Caste systems.
-Rogues are daring wasps that fly ahead of Raiders and prepare the host for a new target to assault. Swift and cunning, they employ many tactics to get the job done - be it subterfuge, sabotage, or assassination. They rely mainly on the poison in their stingers to incapacitate foes.
-Raiders are the main strike force of Wasps. Strong and battle-hardened, they descend upon their prey, destroy, wreak havoc, and then abscond with captives to feed the young of the host. Vice-like mandibles and poisonous stingers are their arsenal.
-(can't think up a third)

Termites blah blah blah, I'll input something later, I'm tired. Let me know what's good, what's crap, and maybe if I get my ego stoked really well, I'll put in Butterflies/Moths tomorrow.

[BrokenMuse]

Nice take on some of the different social insects. I can see Bees valuing skill and finesse, both when flying and fighting because one wrong move with a stinger and the bee dies. Some kind of duelist culture among fighter bees?

I'm really curious as to your take on butterflies/moths because it seems more difficult to pin down roles for independent bugs.

[Guest]

It has something to do with Controllers/Support.

Eye spots, poison scales, pheromones, etc. Given the right skills/traits, and they can probably win solo with Fear, Poison, and to some degree, Pheromone Manipulation.

[Quest Lord]

For butterflies/moths, etc. I think species will become akin to classes.

For ants, we might need several templates for each species, depending on caste. Ditto for some of the more gender dimporphised creatures, a male/female statline will be needed. When the female isn't just stronger, but size categories away, then you know there's an issue.

[Guest]

Wouldn't it be easier to have a base template, and then traits that are related to "origins" or "backgrounds" add additional stats/abilities? Such as: Ant - Fire Ant: gain additional bonus to dex, and some ability related to fire ants.

[Quest Lord]

Well, that's where we were kind of taking it.

You'd pick an ant, get the base stats for an ant, abilities and traits, etc.
Apply the fire ant template, get the stat mods, and the favoured abilities/traits, etc.

However playing as a fire ant drone (wings, no real combat to speak of) would be different to playing as a 'worker' caste or a 'soldier' caste. The castes would themselves need different templates, becuase there's often more variance within a species then compared to the species over.

[Naryzhud]

The template/subtemplate thing seems like the sensible thing, but i'm kind of confused, would you be able to take multiple subtemplates? Say a fire ant soldier wanted to gain some support abilities, could he for instance take a few worker abilities?

Also are we separating these templates out in some way ie soldier/worker/queen is a template and another for fire ant/honey ant/army ant?

And perhaps as a way of dealing with some of the scarier insects have some sort of level modifier like in D&D?

[Quest Lord]

The template/subtemplate thing seems like the sensible thing, but i'm kind of confused, would you be able to take multiple subtemplates? Say a fire ant soldier wanted to gain some support abilities, could he for instance take a few worker abilities?

Also are we separating these templates out in some way ie soldier/worker/queen is a template and another for fire ant/honey ant/army ant?

Maybe have fire ants as a template, and let the player chose their role by virtue of what abilities they select. Many species have 8/9 castes, sometimes caste role depends on age as well. So a fire ant player will have a long list of ability/trait choices to pick from, and the choices he picks determine what caste he is?

And perhaps as a way of dealing with some of the scarier insects have some sort of level modifier like in D&D?

Indeed. I was thinking that either this, or starting off the scarier bugs as juviniles/larvae to make balance would be the fair thing.

[BrokenMuse]

Caste could largely be a matter of flavor. Pick a Fire Ant and take a lot of combat traits? Call it a soldier. Support? Drone. Some weird hybrid? Queen's Chosen. Just provide some guidelines, i.e. "Soldiers usually have these traits and not these..."

[Quest Lord]

Caste could largely be a matter of flavor. Pick a Fire Ant and take a lot of combat traits? Call it a soldier. Support? Drone. Some weird hybrid? Queen's Chosen. Just provide some guidelines, i.e. "Soldiers usually have these traits and not these..."

This. Additionally, maybe have certain abilities rule out other ones. Wings for example would rule out combat traits, etc. because drones don't fight. A support ant might be a soldier with pheremones, or a drone flying ovehead.

[Naryzhud]

Caste could largely be a matter of flavor. Pick a Fire Ant and take a lot of combat traits? Call it a soldier. Support? Drone. Some weird hybrid? Queen's Chosen. Just provide some guidelines, i.e. "Soldiers usually have these traits and not these..."

That works. So we have the choice of order, species, and then a load of traits to choose from and make a character?

What about a system where people might want to create their own strange combinations... could they pick from other species lists at an increased cost? Or is this going to become too game breaking?

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