The Basic Families

[Alpharius]

Alright, I've got a guide to North-American bugs here, and looking through it, it comes up with these categories in regards to adult insects/arachnids:

1. Aphidlike Insects
2. Flealike Insects
3. Earwigs & Silverfish
4. Diving Beetles & Water Bugs
5. Hopperlike Insects
6. Plant Bugs, Toad Bugs, and Cockroaches
7. Weevils
8. Beetles
9. Grasshoppers, Crickets, and Cicadas
10. Mantids and Walkingsticks
11. Ants and Termites
12. Lacewings and Other Long-Winged Insects
13. Dragonflies and Damselflies
14. Flies
15. Bees, Wasps, and Kin
16. Moths
17. Butterflies
18. Ticks, Mites, and Scorpions
19. Spiders

Now, this is obviously a large grouping of insects, and we don't want to deal with that many categories (At least, to start with). My question is this: Which of these groups do we want to merge, which do we want to push to have ready for the first iteration of the rules, and which do we want to save for supplemental rules?

[Mortimer]

Merging moths and butterflies would be a good place to start. They're similar enough, I don't think it'd be a problem.

[BrokenMuse]

Beetles, Grasshoppers/Crickets/Cicadas, Mantids, Ants/Termites, Flies, Bees/Wasps/Kin and Moths/Butterflies (merge into one group beaten dang) are the main ones to start with I think. It should be easy to find 1-3 iconic species that aren't too big/small/specialized for each group.

[Alpharius]

Merging moths and butterflies would be a good place to start. They're similar enough, I don't think it'd be a problem.

Indeed. The way I propose doing it:

Main Release:
1. Beetles/Weevils
2. Ants/Termites
3. Spiders
4. Moths/Butterflies
5. Bees/Wasps/Hornets
6. Grasshoppers/Crickets/Katydids

Second Wave:
1. Mantids and Walkingsticks
2. Dragonflies and Damselflies
3. Flies
4. Scorpions
5. Cockroaches
6. Centipedes and Millipedes

Tertiary Supplement:
1. Aphidlike Insects
2. Earwigs and Silverfish
3. Flealike Insects
4. Hopperlike Insects
5. Cicadas
6. Plant Bugs and Toad Bugs
7. Lacewings and Other Long-Winged Insects
8. Ticks and Mites

Aquatic Supplement:
1. Diving Beetles & Water Bugs

[BrokenMuse]

Seems good to me. What's a good number of species for each group? I did some wiki-ing and grabbed a few that could work.

1. Beetles/Weevils
-Ladybugs
-Bombadier Beetle
-Stag Beetle

2. Ants/Termites
-Fire Ants
-Leafcutter Ants

3. Spiders (Tarantulas are probably a whole other supplement of their own)
-Wolf Spiders/Huntsman
-Jumping Spiders
-Orb Weaver/something web-based.

4. Moths/Butterflies
-Luna Moth
-Monarch

5. Bees/Wasps/Hornets
-Africanized Honey Bee
-Something Vespidae
-America/European Honey Bee

6. Grasshoppers/Crickets/Katydids
-Locust
-Mole Cricket

[Alpharius]

Seems good to me. What's a good number of species for each group? I did some wiki-ing and grabbed a few that could work.

1. Beetles/Weevils
-Ladybugs
-Bombadier Beetle
-Stag Beetle

2. Ants/Termites
-Fire Ants
-Leafcutter Ants

3. Spiders (Tarantulas are probably a whole other supplement of their own)
-Wolf Spiders/Huntsman
-Jumping Spiders
-Orb Weaver/something web-based.

4. Moths/Butterflies
-Luna Moth
-Monarch

5. Bees/Wasps/Hornets
-Africanized Honey Bee
-Something Vespidae
-America/European Honey Bee

6. Grasshoppers/Crickets/Katydids
-Locust
-Mole Cricket

YOU SON OF A BITCH

I'LL BET YOU WERE SPYING ON ME IN CLASS TODAY, BECAUSE MOST OF THOSE I WROTE DOWN AS PROBABLE SELECTIONS FOR THEIR FAMILIES

But seriously, Let me just rattle some off from the book I've got here...

Beetles/Weevils:
- Weevil
- Ladybug
- Pennsylvania Leather-Wing
- Bombardier Beetle
- Firefly
- Click Beetle
- Stag Beetle
- Tiger Beetle
- Japanese Beetle
- June Beetle
Ants/Termites:
- Honey Ant
- Leafcutting Ant
- Cow-Killer
- Pacific Coast Termite
Spiders:
- Ant-Mimic Spider
- Desert Tarantula
- California Trapdoor Spider
- Black Widow
- Thin-Legged Wolf Spider
- Daring Jumping Spider
- Daddy-Long-Legs
- Marbled Orb Weaver
- Arrow-Shaped Micrathena
Moths/Butterflies:
- Wild-Cherry Sphinx
- Yellow Wooly Bear Moth
- Black Witch
- Hummingbird Moth
- Luna Moth
- Wood Nymph
- Monarch
Bees/Wasps/Hornets:
- Paper Wasp
- Giant Hornet
- Tarantula Hawk
- Giant Ichneumon
- Sandhills Hornet
- Bald-Faced Hornet
- Golden Northern Bumble Bee
- Honey Bee
Grasshoppers/Crickets/Katydids:
- Jerusalem Cricket
- Mole Cricket
- House Cricket
- Mormon Cricket
- Dragon Lubber Grasshopper (I shit you not, these are real names)
- Pallid-Winged Grasshopper
- Gladiator Katydid
- Nebraska Cone-Head
- Red-Legged Locust

And this is just a sample of NORTH AMERICAN insects.

[BrokenMuse]

There are some crazy names there. What's the guidebook you're using? I might need to do some research myself.

For tarantulas, it'd be a good idea to separate Old World and New World and arboreal/terrestial as they've got some major differences. OW comes with urticating hairs and NW don't for example.

[Alpharius]

There are some crazy names there. What's the guidebook you're using? I might need to do some research myself.

For tarantulas, it'd be a good idea to separate Old World and New World and arboreal/terrestial as they've got some major differences. OW comes with urticating hairs and NW don't for example.

"The Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Insects and Spiders", published... Wow, 1980.

[BrokenMuse]

"The Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Insects and Spiders", published... Wow, 1980.

Yeah, probably a little out of date. Looks like there's some shiny new guides at my local library. Researching time.

Come to think of it, species ranges can be handwaved by international commerce/travel so we aren't worrying about excluding species from one continent or choosing a geographic setting with enough variety.

[Alpharius]

"The Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Insects and Spiders", published... Wow, 1980.

Yeah, probably a little out of date. Looks like there's some shiny new guides at my local library. Researching time.

Come to think of it, species ranges can be handwaved by international commerce/travel so we aren't worrying about excluding species from one continent or choosing a geographic setting with enough variety.

Yeah, but on the bright side, it has a lot of nice, shiny pictures. This book was my equivalent of a teddy bear growing up, and it's not even that much worse for the wear.

And I agree, while it might make "realistic" sense to keep species constrained to their native continents, in a post-apocalyptic world with sentient bugs, nitpicking about Funnelwebs in North America is sort of bullshit.

[Naryzhud]

Yeah i'm gonna jump in and agree with the whole don't worry where they come from thing here, because frankly if a DM wants to do that, they still can. As far as Species and whatnot, we need to narrow it down a lot. Thinking five as an absolute maximum per order, probably a minimum of one "basic" one and two "upgrade" ones. Also, just come across the Schmidt Sting Pain Index as i was doing a bit of research... we gonna use that to help with statting stingers out? One last thing, yeah your book does seem to be a bit out of date, for instance cow killers are technically a type of wasp now, but it all depends on how we're going to divide it up for the purposes of this i guess.

[Bees]

I'm thinking of a "obligate ectoparasite" "template", characterized by lack of wings, size limits, flattening of the body and a means to drink blood (though of course there are exceptions. ) Apply it on a fly for bat flies, a jumping scorpion fly for fleas, a booklouse for lice, a mite for ticks or some Hemipteran for bed bugs and bat bugs. Helps simplify things, I hope,and there'd be no more need for Flealike Insects group.

Of course, being a parasite without the template would still be possible for insects that don't have those traits, like mosquitos.

Another "template" could be "digger", applied for adult insects apt at subterranean life such as mole crickets, rhinoceros cockroaches, sandgropers and such. It would likewise give a set bonuses and restrictions, reflecting convergent evolution.

[Bogleech]

I actually have a funny sort of "addiction" to narrowing things down. I can spend hours writing up lists :/

I really think roaches and flies deserve to be in the first wave. They're two of the most familiar insects in the world, and I can see roaches being the most basic, rounded characters.

Are these being organized by how similar they are to play, i.e. ants/termites lumped together?

Thinking five as an absolute maximum per order, probably a minimum of one "basic" one and two "upgrade" ones

How about five per order covering its major basis, plus a sixth "exotic" (one of the more deviant/obscure species) for fun and as an example of what else is out there?

So for beetles, you might have:

-Weevil
-Bombardier beetle
-Ladybird
-Horned beetle (stags and unicorns)
-Tiger beetle
-Trilobite beetle!

With the MASSIVE size of Coleoptera, though, five is an awful lot of crunching.

Grasshoppers/Crickets/Cicadas

People mistakenly call Cicadas "locusts" but they have nothing in common with grasshoppers/crickets, they're not even the same order. A cicada is a true bug, like a stinkbug or assassin bug.

[Alpharius]

Hmmm... Lemme take a crack here at the first release, then.

1. Beetles/Weevils
- Stag Beetle
- Tiger Beetle
- Bombardier Beetle
- Firefly
- Weevil

2. Ants/Termites
- Fire Ant
- Leafcutter Ant
- Jack Jumper Ant
- Termite
- Siafu?

3. Spiders
- Wolf Spiders/Huntsman
- Jumping Spiders
- Orb Weaver
- Funnelweb
- Tarantula

4. Moths/Butterflies
-Luna Moth
-Monarch
- Another Moth
- Another Butterfly
- Another Moth/Butterfly

5. Bees/Wasps/Hornets
- Honey Bee
- Yellow Jacket
- Parasitic Wasp
- Bumble Bee
- ?????

6. Grasshoppers/Crickets/Katydids
- Locust
- Mole Cricket
- Grasshopper
- ?????
- ????

7. Cockroaches
- Madagascar Hissing Cockroach
- Regular Cockroach
- ????
- ????
- ????

8. Flies
- House Fly
- Fruit Fly
- Botfly
- ????
- ????

[Bees]

How about five per order covering its major basis, plus a sixth "exotic" (one of the more deviant/obscure species) for fun and as an example of what else is out there?

Sounds pretty nice, and it would test whether the rules are flexible enough to build outlandish insects. Here's my try at a few, then.

1. True Bugs (combining aphidlike insects, plant bugs, toad bugs, cicadas etc.) : Assassin bug, aphid, cicada, spittlebug, bed bug, feather-legged bug, an assassin bug that sedates its prey with sweet nectar like a mobile bloodsucking pitcher plant.
2. Flies: Hoverfly, bot fly, housefly, fruit fly, mosquito, snow fly, a cranefly that discarded its wings to live in the snow.
3. Grasshoppers, Crickets and allies: Katydid, cricket, locust, weta, mole cricket, sandgroper, a large, soil-dwelling relative of grasshoppers.
4. Moths and butterflies. Monarch butterfly, dead leaf butterfly, tiger moth, sphinx moth, bagworm, Brenthia, a genus of moths that folds its wings in a bizarre pattern and adopts a hopping gait to mimic jumping spiders.
5. Bees, wasps, ants and relatives: Yellow crazy ant, honeybee, velvet ant, yellowjacket, spider wasp, Ichneumon eumerus, a wasp that chases its target (a caterpillar that tricks ants into bringing it into their nests and feed it - another interesting thing is that the caterpillar uses not only pheromones but sound, which the wasp may be using to home in on it from afar) down the ant nest, avoiding attack by releasing pheromones that make ants not only avoid the wasp, but also fight each other. Being an ichneumon wasp, it also comes with the ability to inject a virus within the prey caterpillar alongside the egg.

[BrokenMuse]

There's also the Atlas Moth for consideration, just for the size factor. That's all I have though, seeing the lists you all are putting out.

[Bogleech]

Alpharius has fairly perfect picks, I'd just merge locust and grasshopper though, they would surely play almost the same.

If I were tasked with this and hadn't seen anyone else's ideas, here's what I'd have done for the first release:

Flies
-Housefly
-Mosquito
-Robber Fly
-Horsefly
-Snow flea

Bees, wasps & Ants
-Ant (while I realize they're a BIG part of the world...I think a single entry would suffice at first)
-Honeybee
-Hornet
-Parasitoid wasp
-Velvet ant

Spiders
-Widow spider
-Jumping spider
-Wolf spider
-Tarantula
-Bolas spider

Moths & butterflies
-Monarch butterfly
-Death's head hawkmoth
-Geometer moth (chosen more for access to inchworms than for the rather mundane adults)
-Puss moth (chosen not just for a cool-looking moth, but a distinct caterpillar with a cool defense)
-Predatory bagworm (adults are another dull one, but the carnivorous caterpillars build a bag from the severed limbs of past prey!)

Beetles (double-size list, since they are the vast majority of insects)
-Horned beetle (stags, elephants, etc...they would all play mighty similar, you know?)
-Ladybird beetle
-Tiger beetle
-Firefly
-Bombardier beetle
-Weevil
-Carrion beetle
-Rove beetle
-Dung beetle (craftsmanship skills!)
-Blister beetle

Grasshoppers, mantids and stick insects
-Grasshopper
-Field Cricket
-Preying mantis
-Walkingstick
-Mole cricket

MISCELLANEOUS (bugs that feel obligatory, but don't really need multiple species options right off the bat. I've put them in groups of five in order of how important I think they'd be to include)
-Cockroach
-Termite
-Dragonfly
-Flea
-Scorpion
-Millipede
-Centipede
-Isopod
-Velvet worm
-Hermit crab


------------Second Wave------------------

Spiders
-Ogre-faced spider
-Spitting spider
-Ant-mimic spider

Flies
-Fruit fly
-Bee fly
-Stalk-eyed fly

Bugs (introduced with ten options)
-Stinkbug
-Cicada
-Assassin bug
-Bedbug
-Kissing bug
-Treehopper
-Aphid
-Ambush bug
-Toad bug
-Lantern bug

Ants(fully expanded)
-Army ant
-Fire ant
-Leafcutter ant
-Bulldog ant
-Camponotus saundersi (the exploding ant)

Beetles
-Flea beetle
-Longhorn beetle
-Violin beetle
-Trilobite beetle
-Fire beetle

Exotic arachnids
-Solifugid
-Whipscorpion
-Vinegaroon
-Harvestman
-Pseudoscorpion

Long-winged insects (not sure what else we would call these)
-Lacewing
-Dobsonfly
-Mantidfly
-Snakefly
-Scorpionfly

Bees/wasps
-Cuckoo bee
-Tarantula hawk
-Paper wasp

Grasshoppers/crickets/mantids
-Predatory katydid
-Flower mantis
-Weta

Lepidoptera
-Luna moth
-Atlas moth
-Vampire moth

Miscellaneous
-Earwig
-Silverfish
-Springtail
-Zorapteran
-Dipluran
-Web spinner
-Strepsipteran
-Book louse
-Slug/snail
-Leech

Aquatics
Dragonfly nymph
Diving beetle
Water strider
Giant water bug
Crawfish

[Naryzhud]

I quite like alpharius's picks there, and bogleech has some good additions too... Remember as well guys that with things like moths and butterflies there was talk of the scales having "magical" effects, so perhaps this could be used to make some of them more distinct?

[Bogleech]

With so many insects working so different - and being cool for entirely different reasons - at different life cycle stages, maybe adults and larva should get separate species lists in each family and cross-reference where needed. Every family definitely needs a basic/generic template for starters, which would make this especially easy.

So for Lepidoptera, you would lay it out like this:

Butterflies & Moths:
Basic moth
Basic butterfly
Death's head moth (larva: large basic caterpillar)
Puss Moth (larva: see puss caterpillar)

Caterpillars:
Basic caterpillar
Inchworm (adult: small basic moth)
Puss caterpillar (adult: see puss moth)
etc.

[Naryzhud]

I think that larval stages would be quite an in-depth project and we should hold off on it till a later release... Keep things as simple as possible for now.

[mink580]

Has anyone though of Bloodworms?

[Bogleech]

"Bloodworm" can refer to either midge larvae or a type of polychaete worm popular as bait, both of which are water dwellers and polychaetes are all salt-water or brackish, so they could only be viable characters under some really special conditions.

[Quest Lord]

Hmmm... Lemme take a crack here at the first release, then.

1. Beetles/Weevils
- Stag Beetle
- Tiger Beetle
- Bombardier Beetle
- Firefly
- Weevil
- Tribolite

2. Ants/Termites
- Fire Ant
- Leafcutter Ant
- Jack Jumper Ant
- Termite
- Army ant
- Siafu?

3. Spiders
- Wolf Spiders/Huntsman
- Jumping Spiders
- Orb Weaver
- Funnelweb
- Tarantula

4. Moths/Butterflies
-Luna Moth
-Monarch
-Atlas moth
- Birdwing butterfly
- Death's head moth

5. Bees/Wasps/Hornets
- Honey Bee
- Yellow Jacket
- Parasitic Wasp
- Bumble Bee
- Japanese Hornet (see how out rules cover our level adjustment)

6. Grasshoppers/Crickets/Katydids
- Locust
- Mole Cricket
- Grasshopper
- ?????
- ????

7. Cockroaches
- Madagascar Hissing Cockroach
- Regular (European) Cockroach
- Bush Cockroach
- ????
- ????

8. Flies
- House Fly
- Fruit Fly
- Botfly
- Them flies that micic being bees, forget what they're called
- March Fly/Horsefly/whatever.

This looks to be a good list to start with. We're not really going to limit ourselves to having only so many species, this'll just be a start.

[Bogleech]

For those empty spots:

6. Grasshoppers/Crickets/Katydids
- Locust
- Mole Cricket
- Grasshopper
- Jerusalem cricket
- Katydid

7. Cockroaches
- Madagascar Hissing Cockroach
- Regular (European) Cockroach
- Bush Cockroach
-Skunk roach
-Giant burrowing cockroach

[Naryzhud]

I'm happy with those eight classifications there, some of the choices are a little suspect, but we can work on that (like weevils... what are they gonna do as a PC? I can't personally see a use). I suggest we now break down the 8 groups and work on each in a separate thread to stop things getting confused. Perhaps have these 8 threads in a subforum if you're up for doing that mods?

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