Re: Chargen: Great part of the game, or Greatest part of the game?

[Alpharius]

Caste could largely be a matter of flavor. Pick a Fire Ant and take a lot of combat traits? Call it a soldier. Support? Drone. Some weird hybrid? Queen's Chosen. Just provide some guidelines, i.e. "Soldiers usually have these traits and not these..."

That works. So we have the choice of order, species, and then a load of traits to choose from and make a character?

What about a system where people might want to create their own strange combinations... could they pick from other species lists at an increased cost? Or is this going to become too game breaking?

That's an interesting conundrum... The way I see it, players can pick things from their species (Army ant, let's say) at the regular cost, and for an increased cost, can pick anything from their family (Things from other ant species, like the bullet ant's bite, or the wings some members of certain species have, etc.)

[Quest Lord]

Caste could largely be a matter of flavor. Pick a Fire Ant and take a lot of combat traits? Call it a soldier. Support? Drone. Some weird hybrid? Queen's Chosen. Just provide some guidelines, i.e. "Soldiers usually have these traits and not these..."

That works. So we have the choice of order, species, and then a load of traits to choose from and make a character?

What about a system where people might want to create their own strange combinations... could they pick from other species lists at an increased cost? Or is this going to become too game breaking?

That's an interesting conundrum... The way I see it, players can pick things from their species (Army ant, let's say) at the regular cost, and for an increased cost, can pick anything from their family (Things from other ant species, like the bullet ant's bite, or the wings some members of certain species have, etc.)

This sounds good to me. It should be at a steep cost though.

[Naryzhud]

Caste could largely be a matter of flavor. Pick a Fire Ant and take a lot of combat traits? Call it a soldier. Support? Drone. Some weird hybrid? Queen's Chosen. Just provide some guidelines, i.e. "Soldiers usually have these traits and not these..."

That works. So we have the choice of order, species, and then a load of traits to choose from and make a character?

What about a system where people might want to create their own strange combinations... could they pick from other species lists at an increased cost? Or is this going to become too game breaking?

That's an interesting conundrum... The way I see it, players can pick things from their species (Army ant, let's say) at the regular cost, and for an increased cost, can pick anything from their family (Things from other ant species, like the bullet ant's bite, or the wings some members of certain species have, etc.)

This sounds good to me. It should be at a steep cost though.

Works for me. So is this step of Character creation canon now then?

[Quest Lord]

I think so. Though how steep that cost is will need some testing. Double cost seems like a good place to start it at anyhow.

[BrokenMuse]

In regular/serious play, some things shouldn't be purchasable for some species. Butterflies don't sting and waterwalking bees are just weird.

[Quest Lord]

In regular/serious play, some things shouldn't be purchasable for some species. Butterflies don't sting and waterwalking bees are just weird.

Indeed. They can only pick things from within their own order. So army ants can pick fire ant abilities at double cost, but not wasp abilities.

[Naryzhud]

Yeah that sounds sensible. Could have optional rules where traits from other orders is 4 times the normal cost for high powered/weird games?

[Quest Lord]

Yeah that sounds sensible. Could have optional rules where traits from other orders is 4 times the normal cost for high powered/weird games?

Sure, mention it at the back with a bunch of other oddball game fun ideas for DMs.

[Naryzhud]

So as it currently stands Chargen goes as follows:

1)Roll abilities
2)Pick order, apply template
3)Pick species, apply secondary template
4)Spend starting xp on some traits
5)Pick name and go kick some ass.

Anything i've missed?

[Quest Lord]

So as it currently stands Chargen goes as follows:

1)Roll abilities?
2)Pick order, apply template
3)Pick species, apply secondary template
4)Spend starting xp on some traits/abilities
5)Pick name and go kick some ass.

Anything i've missed?

What's this role abilities thing?

[Naryzhud]

Did we get rid of rolling for stats? Must have missed that... Ok, so scratching that, everybody happy with it so far?

[Bogleech]

Indeed. They can only pick things from within their own order. So army ants can pick fire ant abilities at double cost, but not wasp abilities.

What if you can simply create a half-breed character using two species of the same order? Like so many actual hybrids they couldn't reproduce, so there wouldn't be any full hybrid species/races. Mixed abilities at the cost of being a unique outcast?

[Bees]

Indeed. They can only pick things from within their own order. So army ants can pick fire ant abilities at double cost, but not wasp abilities.

What if you can simply create a half-breed character using two species of the same order? Like so many actual hybrids they couldn't reproduce, so there wouldn't be any full hybrid species/races. Mixed abilities at the cost of being a unique outcast?

Well, while we keep saying "species", I guess the "character classes" would more like be families or subfamilies. So while you would have a fairly well-defined set of traits, you have enough freedom for proper character customization, and freaky "hybrids" can be waved off by saying they're weird "off-shoot" species with traits from related families that just so happened to convergently evolve.

[Quest Lord]

Indeed. They can only pick things from within their own order. So army ants can pick fire ant abilities at double cost, but not wasp abilities.

What if you can simply create a half-breed character using two species of the same order? Like so many actual hybrids they couldn't reproduce, so there wouldn't be any full hybrid species/races. Mixed abilities at the cost of being a unique outcast?

It'd be easy enough to pick a main species, then pick a second species to keep taking cross-species upgrades from.

[Naryzhud]

Well, while we keep saying "species", I guess the "character classes" would more like be families or subfamilies. So while you would have a fairly well-defined set of traits, you have enough freedom for proper character customization, and freaky "hybrids" can be waved off by saying they're weird "off-shoot" species with traits from related families that just so happened to convergently evolve.

Shall we settle on some appropriate terminology while its still early and relatively unconfused then?

[Quest Lord]

We've been using order for the type (ie. beetle, bee, ant, wasp, etc.) so far, I think we can stick with that.
Species would be the sub-template (ie. fire ant, jumping jack ant, crazy yellow ant, honey ant, etc.) which also works well.

[Bees]

Alright then, let's come up with an attempt for a simple faux Order and a few Families to see if it works on paper. Something easy first, I don't want to deal with nightmarish ones like beetles or true bugs.

Order Mecoptera, scorpion flies.
Advantages
Opportunistic Feeder (4) - Scorpion flies may eat dead or dying insects, hunt on their own, or feed on plant tissue. They're even known for stealing prey from spider webs.
Wings (4) - While they're no flies, scorpion flies are reasonably apt in the air when they do have to take off.
Agility Advantage (2)
Camouflage (5) - Scorpion flies are small and inconspicious, some species are even ambush predators that stay still for extended periods of time and snap at unwary prey.
Mandibles (3) - Quite a few species possess wicked beak-like head with well-developed mandibles.

Restrictions
Size Advantage (2) - Even the largest are rather small insects.

Family Bittacidae, hangingflies
Advantages
Raptorial legs (5) - Like mantids and some assassin bugs, hangingflies have long leg segments that can grasp prey. Unlike those two, it is their third pair of legs that are modified.

Family Panorpidae, common scorpion flies
As archetypal scorpion flies, Panorpids get no extra abilities, but may spend X extra points during character creation.

Family Boreidae, snow fleas
Advantages
Cold-tolerant (6) - As their name should indicate, snow fleas can thrive at freezing temperatures, a feat relatively few insects can boast.
Jumping (3) - As their name should indicate, snow fleas have a tendency to hop around.

Restrictions
Wings (0) - Snow fleas have much reduced wings, or no wings at all.

Ignoring certain parts (like snow fleas being unable to survive in hotter regions), should this be divided further into Species, or is family level sufficient?

[BrokenMuse]

To clarify, the number in parentheses is how many times a trait can be taken right? Traits for diet or environmental survival seem like they'd be one-time only traits.

Awesome start though. We should probably start coming up with a pool of trait names soon.

[Bees]

Traits for diet or environmental survival seem like they'd be one-time only traits.

The idea was that more ranks in being a generalist would allow you to survive on more substances (perhaps even granting minor saves against toxic materials? ) with say, roaches generally being very capable on it, and more ranks in environmental resistances would allow you to survive harsher things (a beetle with a rank in cold tolerance would have no problem handling winters as long as it limits its activities, a springtail with seven ranks in it could jump around on Antarctic ice all day without hassle)

For the resistance skills, I'd say they'd be pretty cheap (along with the communication skills) because they're rather situational, though.

[Naryzhud]

I think family level works for now, at least at this stage... once we get things up and running we could go further and add species as a sort of "prestige class" but for now lets leave it at families?

The sample order looks fairly solid, i'm no entymologist though, so what does everyone else think? Also do you fancy sorting out the starting stats for them as well Bees? Good job so far!

[Quest Lord]

What you were posting there was what U had in mind as species, not families.

From wikipedea:

Looking at jack jumper ants
"Family: Formicidae
Subfamily: Myrmeciinae
Genus: Myrmecia
Species: M. pilosula"

Formicaidae is all ants. That's the family/order.
M. pilosula is the type of ant.

Flies is an order - we might want species here
Scorpionflies is also an order, because they're not actually *true* flies. However a more out there order might not need species sub-templates right away.

Fleas is an order, we might want some species here,
Snow fleas area a species of springtail, not an order at all. Acocrding to wikipedia the order would be springtail and snow fleas would be the species.

However one might not need to take a species sub-template, and just play a vanilla "Bee", not a honeybee or a bumblebee, etc?

[Alpharius]

What you were posting there was what U had in mind as species, not families.

From wikipedea:

Looking at jack jumper ants
"Family: Formicidae
Subfamily: Myrmeciinae
Genus: Myrmecia
Species: M. pilosula"

Formicaidae is all ants. That's the family/order.
M. pilosula is the type of ant.

Flies is an order - we might want species here
Scorpionflies is also an order, because they're not actually *true* flies. However a more out there order might not need species sub-templates right away.

Fleas is an order, we might want some species here,
Snow fleas area a species of springtail, not an order at all. Acocrding to wikipedia the order would be springtail and snow fleas would be the species.

However one might not need to take a species sub-template, and just play a vanilla "Bee", not a honeybee or a bumblebee, etc?

The best idea may be to have a default species for each Order - Army Ant for ants, Honey Bee for bees, Wolf Spider for spiders, etc etc, with the more exotic species being things you can develop the traits of.

[Quest Lord]

That sounds interesting. Honey bees might not be the best default species, they're unique with their highly barbed stingers and lancets.

[Alpharius]

That sounds interesting. Honey bees might not be the best default species, they're unique with their highly barbed stingers and lancets.

Well, you get the idea. I was thinking the most well-known species might work best as the default, but further consideration on that point brings to light the fact that most well known =/= simplest.

[ChickenSpider]

The spider races are generally viewed with a mixture of fear and suspicion. Every Colonial is taught to "never trust a spider", this is entirely true. A spider will not hesitate to cheat, swindle, or suck out the vital fluids of anyone that gets in their way of their grand scheme. They view ants as tired old playthings. As ant society teaches the benefits of loyalty and honor, an ant will be flabbergasted that the spider went back on his word, since ants never break their word, they find it impossible to bealive that anyone else would break their word. As such, ants are the staple in the diet of spiders. In areas where hunting spiders are common, the ants have learned the hard way that not everyone is as honorable as they are, and as such are stingy with their trust. Mantises show a great deal of respect for spiders, as they are both masters of stealth. Wasps give grudging respect to spider-kind, viewing their ruthlessness as admirable trait. Although, wasps remember the thousands of scouts who were trapped in a web, or offered a "shortcut" by a crafty wolf spider. When spiders organize for war, they attack with bloody guerilla tactics and ambushes. The most feared members of the spider host are the chicken spiders, also known as "Godslayers" for their ability to down massive god like beasts such as the dreaded "khi'chen". Spiders are best suited for trickster classes and scouts.

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